Could the moderator please remove the previous comment, it has been corrected for grammar.

I’m with you so far.

“- Both systems are under enormous pressure as the USA soon will not be able to maintain their gold plated defense programs and fund their skimpy social programs without reverting to their 1990 tax rates.”

I would have to disagree. We have a lot of leeway to cut defense spending and divert that money toward social programs. However, the reverse is not true for Europe. In order for them to raise their defense budget to a meaningful level (perhaps even to the point where they have to prepare for the possibility that they will be almost entirely responsible for their own defense), they would, as you mentioned, have to raise taxes to make up the difference. My self-employed cousin in Germany pays roughly 50% in income tax already. When will he decide it’s just not worth it to own his own business? Socialism is not very innovation or motivation inspiring when you’re paying the majority of your wages to the government. Essentially, productivity is taxed.

“- Life is better for regular people in Europe as the social safety net is much better than the one in the USA (it is survival of the fittest and they will throw you aside when used up).”

This may be true now, but what happens, if, for example, the birth rate is not high enough to support the retired folks who are living longer and longer lives. I read an article recently that said 3 German workers are supporting 1 pensioner. They expect that number to be 1 worker supporting 1 pensioner within 30 years. The system will most likely fall apart well before that. Either way, a lot of people will be left with a fraction of the benefits there were expecting, essentially “throwing them aside when they’re used up”, as you put it.

I see socialism as perhaps the greatest Ponzi scheme ever devised. If you don’t have that pyramid of relatively few pensioners at the top being supported by a broad base of workers at the bottom of the pyramid, then the well runs dry.

This may be slightly off-topic, but it does have some relation. I often reflect on corporations who are looking for the cheapest labor, and good paying manufacturing and/or Union jobs being perhaps irrevocably lost. Surprisingly, these types of things have the support of one of our political parties (at least!) and I often stop to wonder if they realize that they’re cutting their own throats. Lower wages means a lower tax base. I laugh when the “benefits” of globalization are touted and laugh again at the promise that by somehow shipping good paying jobs out of the country, we’re in some way benefiting our economy and even “creating” jobs. It may look good on paper to the $200000 a year economists sitting in an air conditioned office who probably never broke a sweat in all of their working years, but to the middle class worker who is left with no marketable skills, it looks like exactly what it is. Germany has a strong manufacturing sector and is an export GIANT. And all of this while still managing to pay their workers an average (in dollars) of $48 per hour. What are we doing wrong here??

You may say that I seem to take a middle ground between capitalism and socialism, and I would probably agree with that. But I sincerely believe that if the corporations continue putting profits ahead of the people, then they’re not going to have many people left to buy their overpriced products. I’m sure the workers in China making iPods for $3 aren’t Apple’s #1 consumer. Would I buy an iPod if I was making $20 or $30 an hour. Absolutely. However, if I’m making minimum wage, then it becomes a luxury I can do without. I’m reminded of Henry Ford who decided to DOUBLE the pay of his workers to $5 a day. He understood the concept of one hand washing the other, something lost on many of today’s corporations. He paid his workers enough to buy his cars, and everybody was happy.

Sorry for such a long post.

Not sure what fiction you socialist/capitalist bashing people have been reading/smoking.

Right back at you. Your points must be true in some other parallel universe, but not here.

Let me just point out a few of your delusions for now. You say:

You judge European socialism like it is the socialism of the Stalin days much like European people judge USA style capitalism like the kind system that was in place in the the Scrooge days (never mind it is).

Yeah, okay, so I’m not allowed to jusdge European socialism like it’s Stalinism, which I don’t do at all, but you’re allowed to “judge USA style capitalism like the kind system that was in place in the the Scrooge days”. Do I detect hypocrisy here?

Both systems are under enormous pressure as the USA soon will not be able to maintain their gold plated defense programs and fund their skimpy social programs without reverting to their 1990 tax rates.

If that’s considered skimpy, then it’s proof that socialism really doesn’t work. Did you know that every single tax dollar collected by the U.S. Federal government goes to social programs? Every single one! Yes, ALL of it. 100%!

46% of the Federal budget goes to non-social spending items (http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258), and that’s how much is currently borrowed. That’s not enough? Anything else the government does, runs on borrowed money.

Going back to 1990′s tax rates won’t help because it will not raise significant revenue. How do we know? We know because lowering the 1990′s tax rates did not cause revenue reduction.

Life is better for regular people in Europe as the social safety net is much better than the one in the USA (it is survival of the fittest and they will throw you aside when used up).

It’s so typical to look at one benefit while neglecting a mountain of drawbacks. In Europe, people are also less likely to find a job, be able to save money, start a business and provide for themselves. It’s better to rely on someone else to provide for you than on your own resources, really? What happens when that someone else can’t provide anymore? I suppose you riot like in Greece and France.

Do not worry there is plenty of billionaires in Europe (not to mention that the largest number of billionaires in a single city is located in Russia of all places).

Not sure what this has to do with anything. In Russia billionaires were minted due to crony distribution of formerly state held industries after the fall of communism.

The main difference today between the two systems is that a large part of the budget in the USA goes towards defense and in Europe a large part of the budget goes to social programs.

False. In the U.S. social programs make 54% of the Federal budget, and defense 20%: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

When it comes to social spending, the U.S. is just Europe lite, not the opposite.

The tax situation in the European socialist countries of today is not much different today than that of the USA in the 1970s and I am sure that you don’t consider the people of those days commies.

False. For starters, VAT taxes in Europe are now typically 2 to 2.5 times greater than sales taxes in the U.S. ever were. Furthermore, the top income bracket at which you started to pay 70% was about $200,000 in the 1970′s, which was a boat load of money back then. Top margins in European counties cut well into middle class. And there are other miscellaneous taxes that Europe beats the U.S. on. The French wealth tax is an example.

But at any rate, who ever said Europeans are “commies” while the U.S. is capitalist? When it comes to socialism, the U.S. is now just a small step behind Europe. 54% of the U.S. budget goes to social spending, remember? And what’s even more fascinating is that Europe is now cutting down on socialism while the U.S. is ramping it up.

- You judge European socialism like it is the socialism of the Stalin days much like European people judge USA style capitalism like the kind system that was in place in the the Scrooge days (never mind it is).

- Do not worry there is plenty of billionaires in Europe (not to mention that the largest number of billionaires in a single city is located in Russia of all places).

- The tax situation in the European socialist countries of today is not much different today than that of the USA in the 1970s and I am sure that you don’t consider the people of those days commies.

- The main difference today between the two systems is that a large part of the budget in the USA goes towards defense and in Europe a large part of the budget goes to social programs.

- Both systems are under enormous pressure as the USA soon will not be able to maintain their gold plated defense programs and fund their skimpy social programs without reverting to their 1990 tax rates.

- Europe will have to divert more money towards defense to make up for USA cutbacks and increase taxes to cover the increasing cost of social safety nets in place.

- Life is better for business in the USA as is it more like the old wild west and no regulation to speak of.

- Life is better for regular people in Europe as the social safety net is much better than the one in the USA (it is survival of the fittest and they will throw you aside when used up).

Would you rather live in a system that STEALS what you have worked so hard for, “share” it with everyone else (who probably could care less about your labor), and only return to you a small fraction of your worth

OR

Would you rather live in a system that encourages entrepreneurship, healthy competition, and REWARDS those that honestly work hard and lets them keep the majority of their labor’s profits?

I personally prefer to keep what I’ve worked hard for and FREELY CHOOSE to give to those in need and NOT BE FORCED to share. I prefer to live in a system where if I don’t like one person’s product I can search elsewhere for the same thing at a better price. Forcing people to help each other sounds good on paper but……YOU CAN’T FORCE PEOPLE TO DO WHAT’S RIGHT. AS MUCH AS WE WOULD LOVE TO….YOU’RE ONLY GOING TO GET MORE PROBLEMS IN THE LONG RUN.